Below is the text of the article I wrote for the Radio Times recently. Not surprisingly, it provoked a lot of comment and objection, mostly ignoring the central thrust of the article and picking up on the dismissal of Richard Dawkins as a ‘thinker’. The criticisms were fair and it was unwise of me to edit in a shorthand comment that needed more precision, clearer elaboration and a different context – none of which were possible in an 800 word commissioned article.
The deluge of comments (also by mail and email) was a little difficult to keep up with, given that (a) I have a rather busy day job and (b) it was Holy Week. But, apart from the reasonable criticisms levelled at me, there was some interesting discussion. Because it is spread over several threads (readers came in to the blog on different days and at different stages of posting), it is not easy to follow as a single conversation. However, I make the following observations before moving on to other areas of interest – after all, this is a personal blog and not an internet forum on a single theme:
1. I should be more careful before writing throw-aways without explaining them. Fair cop. (Richard Dawkins is obviously not an ‘awful thinker’ when it comes to some things, but is very vulnerable when it comes to religion, philosophy and that sort of thinking.)
2. Atheists derive their atheism from different origins and can’t be lumped together.
3. Some atheists are remarkably sensitive to any criticism of Richard Dawkins et al – and sometimes betray what comes over as a rather uncritical reading of him. This is odd when one of their criticisms of Christians/theists is their uncritical assumptions about the world.
4. Science explores and explains the mechanics of how the world works, but says nothing about ‘human meaning’. This is something that Philip Pullman and the Archbishop of Canterbury agree on. As ethicists put it, you can’t get an ‘ought’ from an ‘is’. This is where people like Pullman take over from Dawkins in grappling with morality and meaning, taking a different starting point and proving much more interesting (in my view).
5. ‘Proof’ is a slippery word, often used as if it were monovalent. As I wrote in response to an email yesterday (and this is concisely illustrative, so not intended to be a knock-down argument):
I prove that a table is a table by looking at it, measuring it, testing it (does it do what we expect a table to do?), using it and checking whether or not it conforms to what we usually mean by ‘table’. I prove that Hitler existed by looking at documentary evidence, historical evidence (what has happened to the shape of Europe, for example), literary evidence and personal record. I prove that my children (or friends) love me by the way they behave towards me. But, I don’t write off the existence of Hitler because I can’t do to him what I do to a table or because I have no relationship with him. Nor do I reject my family’s love on the grounds that I might be deceived and cannot provide incontrovertible ‘proof’ that that love is real.
In other words, we accept different ways of experiencing and validating reality. I can’t put God in a box and measure him. I can’t find a birth certificate for him. But I might want to explore the history of humanity, the search for meaning and morality, my/our experience of love (and what makes me think that my life and death matter at all).
6. I am grateful to all those who engaged in this matter and hope it leads to a more mutually respectful conversation along the lines I intended to open up in the article itself – before inserting the notorious distraction.
Here’s the text (which appeared under the title Why I am an E-vangelist – not a title I chose…):
Over a cup of tea, a woman in the garden of a church in Surrey asked me a question that nearly made me choke. Where was my chauffeur? She was clearly surprised to find that the world has moved on, that (most) bishops don’t live in huge palaces and that we usually drive ourselves to wherever we’re going. I dread to think how she would cope with some of the more radical social changes in British society in the past six decades.
For example, the demise of deference. There was a time when bishops and clergy were given automatic respect because of the offices they held. No longer. Respect has to be earned, and people feel free to argue with whatever you dare to say about anything. There are no longer any protective pedestals from which to preach, and dialogue is replacing monologue as the dominant medium of communication. Get out of the safety of the church and it’s a jungle out there.
Yes, there are still people around who will listen uncritically to whatever they hear from a pulpit – especially if it ticks the “right” boxes and confirms their view of God, the world and us. There are Christians around who mourn the passing of the old world and fear the loss of a privileged place for Christian culture in the public square. I don’t mourn the passing of deference, but I do think that what has taken its place isn’t very impressive. Richard Dawkins isn’t alone in excelling in one field – such as biology – while being awful in another – such as “thinking”. Some commentators have a shockingly misplaced confidence in demolishing religious straw men that even I don’t believe in.
This is evident also in the blogosphere. I have been blogging since the end of 2008 – normally five times a week and I have had more than 5,000 views a day – but I am still amazed that so many people engage online with the things that interest me. When I started blogging, I decided that it was pointless to play it safe or simply propagate the usual stuff to the usual suspects. A number of bishops blog, but mainly for their church audience. I wanted to be “out there”, engaging in public debates about the world, politics, the arts, the media, ethics and theology.
My starting point is an insatiable curiosity about the world and about people, and why both are the way they are. At the heart of Christianity is the understanding that God has opted in to the world and not exempted himself from it: that Christian living means engaging at every level with and for that world. This means I’ve had to grow a thick skin. The glory and agony of blogging – which I see as the first word in a conversation, not the final word of judgement – is that anyone is free to argue with me, question me, ridicule me or be abusive. But what I have found is that my own thinking is changed by the light other contributors throw on a subject. The holes in my own perceptions are exposed as my prejudices and ideologies become open to scrutiny. That has got to be a good thing.
It’s an interesting exercise. I don’t know most of the people who comment on my blog – some I hope never to know, others I might like to befriend. But, whether they are critical or complimentary, they make me think. And I don’t regard it as a bad thing for any leader to think openly, change his mind when appropriate, apologise when he gets it wrong (in substance or in tone), or to be unafraid to be thought inadequate. We live in a culture in which politicians and others feel compelled to appear watertight in their consistency and always incontrovertibly “right”, but I think there is a place for a different model of “learning leadership”. Christian leaders should be unafraid to offer an alternative model of what I often call a “confident humility”.
An area of challenge relates to the atheists in the blogosphere, particularly those who represent perfectly what their prejudices tell them is the preserve of religious people: fundamentalism and an unswayable confidence in their own unargued-for assumptions about the world and human meaning.
This frequently leads to clashes, but the robustness of these is – if not always enlightening – usually entertaining. The blogosphere isn’t for the fainthearted. But what’s the point in simply talking to those who agree with you, when you could be arguing your way to a better understanding of God, the world and people (as well as yourself ) “out there” in the rough new world of instant media?
I think Christian faith is big enough to stand confidently in the public square. The worst they can do is crucify us. But then, Easter tells me even that isn’t the end of the story.
April 8, 2010 at 4:55 pm
I am glad that you blog. You and many of the commenters give me much to think about!
April 8, 2010 at 5:00 pm
What is the difference between a ‘fundamental atheist’ (notice the word; a-theist- without religion, either there is a God as defined by the religions, or there is not) and a ‘non-fundamental’ atheist?
And just for clarification:
What do you believe in?
I.e. Do you genuinely believe that Jesus was born of a virgin?
-Do you genuinely believe in the resurrection?
Given that:
“While the Resurrection of Jesus Christ is one of the fundamental beliefs of Christianity, accounts of other resurrections also appear in religion, myth, and fable. This leads some to suggest that the founding Christians invented the story of Jesus’ resurrection based on other pagan traditions.”
What do you, Bishop of Croydon, believe? (It’s hard not to sound pompous in the written word, but I’m genuinely interested in this, as it’s essential to understand your beliefs on the this subject, before I can have a proper discussion, hence the questions!)
You seem somewhat confused in your beliefs, (I suppose this could also be called non-fundamentalism, verging on agnosticism), although I admit this is an assumption, given the small extracts of yours that I have read.
Given that you preach to others, many of whom will not have the intellect that you do, intellect that allows you to explore and inquire about the world; how do you justify standing in the pulpit in the first place, and what right does that give you to pretend that you are in any position to know more about the universe than anyone else?
Glad to see you have taken back your crude remark about Dawkins and his thinking, as if you somehow have a wonderful insight yourself into his thought processes.
Perhaps it is his concise and clear statements that you do not like, as it seems ‘new-age’ Christians would rather write wooly,endless paragraphs over what non-theists would rather say ‘I do not know, all I know is that I don’t belive in the Abrahamic God and creation of that sort. But I do not know how the universe started. All I know is that I am an ‘atheist’ (not somebody who believes in nothing).
And then get on with their lives and careers, whether that’s science, looking after the elderly, chef etc.
The best answer to all this is ‘I do not know how the universe started’ and fairy-tales certainly not help.
You can think and write essays for hours/days/years, but the answer will still be as above. Unless science (e.g. astronomy, provides us with answers beyond our wildest dreams).
Kind regards,
Chris McCloy
April 8, 2010 at 5:16 pm
I am learning much from your blog with its comments: many thanks.
And, of course, you are right in pointing out elsewhere that this is a personal blog and cannot be turned into a forum.
I will probably lurk, rather than contribute, for some time until I get used to what’s expected.
April 8, 2010 at 5:30 pm
Chris McCloy, this must rate as one of the more pompous and confused comments I have had. There are too many points I could take issue with: ‘atheist’ does not mean ‘without religion’; I don’t refer to ‘fundamental atheist’, but to ‘fundamentalism’ – big difference there. Perhaps it’s you who needs to clarify.
Read other blog posts and you will see that I strongly believe in the resurrection, but not resuscitation. Also, Christians talk about a ‘virginal conception’, not a ‘virgin birth’.
In your comment you make a series of assumptions and challenges that I don’t feel inclined to respond to at this point. I have spent the last week responding on various threads and I think you’ll find your answers (if that is really what you are looking for) there.
I am happy to admit when I have got it wrong (eg. re. Dawkins) and I am prepared to have a reasonable discussion. But I am not going to waste time arguing on the basis you offer.
April 8, 2010 at 7:43 pm
I read the article in Radio Times and it seemed to me to be a good thing to bring blogs to a wider audience. Christain belief comes down to faith in a person, Jesus, at the end of the day. All the arguments around it cannot alter the basic tennent that without faith there is nothing to argue about.
April 8, 2010 at 8:27 pm
[...] dwell on the points he raises, as it can be uncomfortable indeed learning this the hard way. Bishop Nick Baines – Why blog? (Radio Times article) If you have stumbled onto this blog and are not a Christian, get yourself a hot drink, pull up a [...]
April 8, 2010 at 8:48 pm
Nick’s Radio Times piece of April 3rd. is crisply written.
But to characterise Richard Dawkins as “awful at thinking” may result I fear from having been bowled over by the logical force and occasionally unsuppressed anger in Dawkins’s essays and books. I’ve met Dawkins twice – once at the Cheltenham Science Festival and (more recently) coming across him while wandering in the New College quad; on both occasions he struck me as thoughtful and pleasant.
Dawkins’s essay “Dolly and the Cloth Heads” in his book “A Devil’s Chaplain” is a nice example of his work and reading it through wouldn’t take up too much of a bishop’s time! I find it a compelling little read.
But then, like Dawkins I took a degree in biology, and like him any religious beliefs have long since evaporated.
The comments about “Atheism” in Nick’s third-last paragraph are for the most part patronising and/or incorrect. As to The Meaning of Life, Nick may find it useful to briefly study Philip Pullman’s suggestion at one of the “letter heads” of the British Humanist Association’s home page.
As to Nick’s payoff (“the worst they can do is crucify us”) one might say:
a) a violent and painful death would provide Christianity with another “martyr”
b) it would help to prove that those who oppose Christianity can be dreadful people.
A worse thing to do a Christian might perhaps be to ignore him or patronise him, as he sets out his stall in the market place …
John Ricketts
April 9, 2010 at 1:18 pm
Nick, can you explain the difference between the ‘virgin birth’ and the ‘virginal conception’ please? (I have never heard a christian refer to the latter. )
I would like to repeat Christopher McCloy’s question (item 2 above) in a different way. I hope I will not be pompous. (I have no problem with confusion, there are an awful lot of things out there I don’t understand).
What sort of god do you personally believe in? Do you believe in the supernatural, biblical god who listens to our prayers and created the universe, or do you believe in the more ‘pantheistic’ god?
KK
April 9, 2010 at 2:16 pm
Nick, can I chip in again please? Section 5 of your blog above ( ‘Proof’ is a slippery word… ) is very important.
Exchange the word ‘proof’ with ‘evidence’, it is less ‘slippery’.
I have 58 years of evidence that the Sun will rise tomorrow morning in the East, and set tomorrow evening in the West.
There is evidence that Hitler existed and did terrible things.
There is evidence that the universe is about 13 Billion years old.
There is evidence that Santa Clause exists (ask a young child).
There is evidence that my family loves me (I am lucky).
But there is no evidence for the existence of a supernatural god.
You refer above to “the history of humanity, the search for meaning and morality, my/our experience of love (and what makes me think that my life and death matter at all).”
This is not evidence for the existence of a god, it is evidence for humanism.
We do not need a supernatural god to be nice to each other. Morality does not come from god, it comes from us.
Does our life & death matter? Yes, because we are humans, but we do not need a god to explain these things.
KK
April 9, 2010 at 5:23 pm
virginal conception rather than virgin birth! lol, what a cop-out! that still doesn’t answer the completely irrational nature of the statement!
also, the whole “tapping a table” philosophy is NOT good philosophy anymore and hasn’t been for some time…
but besides that point, I wouldn’t take for granted that my family loved me and to prove it I would give examples of how they are loving. no such physical examples exist of God to his followers. Further, even without that family-related argument, it leaves one open to say “I can think anything without evidence then”. bring on believing in a spaghetti monster!! yeah!!
April 9, 2010 at 6:13 pm
Garrett, if that is the best you can do in terms of a rational response (particularly in taking seriously human experience), you’d better fins somewhere else to bang on.
April 9, 2010 at 6:16 pm
Kevin K, briefly… You can’t simply dismiss people’s account of their own experience (unless you like fascism) – as well as bringing (for example) historical questions to the resurrection. Have you read Keith Ward or Tom Wright (who, as a historian, managed 800 pages on the resurrection recently)?
April 9, 2010 at 6:40 pm
Kevin K, this is becoming a private conversation! The term ‘virgin birth’ is actually meaningless, even though it has become the accepted term for what happened with Mary and Jesus. ‘Virginal conception’ describes what the Gospels say (but don’t elaborate on).
I believe in the God of the Bible who is the creator and sustainer of all that is – but I leave it to science to work out the ‘how’ questions whilst the Bible addresses the ‘why’ questions of human experience. But God is not merely ‘supernatural’, but interactive with the creation – something developed by The Revd Canon Professor John Polkinghorne, Fellow of the Royal Society, former President of Queen’s College (Cambridge), quantum physicist and Anglican priest. Seriously, you might find some of his books interesting even if at the end of them you still don’t agree with him. (And I am not a pantheist…)
I also think I need to move on to other things, so will leave it to others to join the conversation from here.
April 10, 2010 at 12:39 am
Nick – I like your comment “I believe in the God of the Bible who is the creator and sustainer of all that is – but I leave it to science to work out the ‘how’ questions whilst the Bible addresses the ‘why’ questions of human experience.”
I’ve been coming to this conclusion recently after years of hearing “fundimentalist” Christians coming up with weak and flawed arguments to fight against science. This isn’t to say that I agree with everything scientists say, more that in the end the mechanics of human life doesn’t really matter, it’s how and why we choose to live our lives the way we do. Humanism goes some way towards a moral order, preventing the complete breakdown of society, but Christianity tells us that just living a good life isn’t enough, we have to deny ourselves and give God the glory rather than giving ourselves a big pat on the back.
April 10, 2010 at 10:41 am
Lost threads: at least 2 co-bloggers (myself and David Jones) are disappointed not to have heard from you about ‘judgement and the hard stuff’ (my comment 45, Persecuted Christians) (sorry David if I’ve got this wrong) – by which we mean Christ’s alleged words on hell and damnation, also His claim to be God. (NB although I know I asked you to prioritise your day job!). Just now, you are open to Matt Wardman’s criticism: “The Anglican approach seems to involve both debating carefully, but having distinct habit of inconvenient bits being ignored” (comment 27). Do you believe in hell, and what do you think it is like. I REALLY want to know! I recall that Rowan Williams’ hell (“How do you know God exists, Channel 4 August 2009) hardly seemed worrying about.
And where DOESN’T Jesus say ‘I am God made flesh’ as alleged by Tony Lambert (comment 43 ‘Pullman’s Punches March 30) and contradicted by yourself at comment 44?
I’m posting this in 2 places.
Best regards.
April 10, 2010 at 2:29 pm
Nick, I agree I’ve been taking up much of your time, and I thank you for your answers. I will take a back seat for awhile.
Please believe me when I say that I am genuinely trying to understand your philosophy. When I challenge you it is because I do not understand you. I am a physicist, you are a philosopher, sometimes I think we speak different languages.
KK
April 10, 2010 at 4:49 pm
Hi Nick,
I’m curious to know whether, as a bishop, your motive with these blogs is to speak on behalf of God or simply to speak your own thoughts.
The reason I ask is after browsing through several of your posts I was slightly surprised to see no quotations from (or even references to) God’s word the Bible.
Jesus Christ frequently supported his comments with references to scripture (e.g. Matthew 4:4;7;10). He also said he didn’t come to teach his own ideas, but those of God (John 7:16-18).
Do you not feel that followers of Christ should imitate his example?
For instance, your most recent post ‘Central Asian uprising’ discusses the volatile political situation in the area, but makes no mention of God’s Kingdom being the only real solution to this world’s problems. The Kingdom was the central theme of Christ’s ministry. He taught his followers to pray for its arrival.
What message of hope would you give to people living in Kyrgyzstan? Who will deliver lasting peace and security – a new president, or the Prince of Peace, Jesus Christ? (Psalm 146:3; Daniel 2:44)
April 10, 2010 at 5:39 pm
Noel, when I used the words ‘hard stuff’ I was not referring to what Jesus said about ‘hell’ or ‘sheol’ or hades’. I was referring to the hard stuff he said to (a) his friends – don’t follow me if you want a comfy ride, (b) his co-religionists – you are missing the point and if you keep looking for the sort of Messiah who will kick the Romans out and solve your problems then you’re looking in the wrong place (and you’ll suffer the consequences – particularly Roman retribution), and (c) everyone else – what I mean by the Kingdom of God is actually what makes us what God intended us to be, so take it seriously.
What this last week has taught me is that a blog such as this is not conducive to the sort of debate that is necessitated by the questions raised. It is impossible to qualify any statement here without having someone demand an unqualified response – when most issues are not so simple. For example, I haven’t got the time to go through when Jesus might be talking about eternity and when about the imminent political consequences of carrying on the way they were going. ‘Hell’ comes into this – especially when we note that ‘Gehenna’ refers to the rubbish dump in the Kidron Valley outside Jerusalem. I think the fragmentary nature of a blog thread (or threads) does not allow for the sort of conversation we could have in the pub or in a book.
Jesus doesn’t call himself ‘God made flesh’. I think you are referring to the Prologue of John’s Gospel (1:14) – which is the phrase used by the Gospel writer, not Jesus himself.
I am grateful for the probing, but I really am going to have to move on from this thread now. I have spent most of my week off responding to a huge amount of correspondence arising from the Radio Times article and this blog is not a one-issue forum. I am happy for other people to continue to debate, but I have other things to think about as well. I hope you will undertstand that.
April 10, 2010 at 5:42 pm
Kevin K, please see my response to Noel. I do appreciate your questioning and would be very happy to carry on in the pub where a conversation can run differently from on here. The last week has demonstrated the limitations as well as the possibilities of blogging as a medium.
I think your point about ‘scientist’ and ‘philosopher’ has more to it than you might think! I don’t think they speak different languages, but I think they start from different points and ask different questions. I would be very happy to continue ‘live’ somewhere if you happen to be down this way.
April 10, 2010 at 5:49 pm
Trevor, do you think that simply quoting from the Bible (as if nothing could be true without a biblical quote) would make what I write more ‘biblical’? If so, in what way?
I write from a Christian perspective about all sorts of things. The intention behind the Kyrgyzstan post was to provide background information in order to help people understand better what is happening there. Do you really think that every comment should have (a) a biblical quotation to validate it or (b) a ‘nothing is worth thinking about unless it ends in the Kingdom of God’ conclusion? This blog is not a pulpit, is not aimed at Christians (only), and I am not preaching at people.
You might want to think through the ethics of anonymity, while you are at it.
April 11, 2010 at 8:17 am
Thanks for responding, Nick.
Do you agree that the duty of every Christian is to teach others about God’s will and purpose? (Matthew 28:19,20)
If we love God with our whole soul, heart and mind will we not seek every opportunity to share with others the message of hope and comfort from God’s word? (Matthew 22:36-39)
People are attracted to your blog because you are a bishop. Why shouldn’t you want to use this forum to fulfil the Christian commission to preach? Do you accept that our failure to do so is a very serious matter with God? (Ezekiel 3:17,18)
I can read background information about the politics of Kyrgyzstan on any number of News websites. I just feel that by discussing these topics without any clear mission to glorify God, you may have overlooked the greatest duty of all Christians.
Regards
April 11, 2010 at 10:58 am
Trevor, why do you think Paul adopted a different way of addressing the Athenians in Acts 17?
Why do you make the assumption that ‘people are attracted to your blog because you are a bishop’?
Do you think that proof-texting the Bible is a ‘biblical’ thing to do?
Who taught you to be so patronising?
What conclusions did you draw about the ethics of anonymity?
If you don’t like this blog, go elsewhere. I’m not writing to make people like you feel better (or more right).
April 11, 2010 at 11:49 am
[...] those who start from a different set of assumptions. I am grateful that some of those commenting on this blog showed more genuine interest in the central issues and respected those who [...]
April 11, 2010 at 7:06 pm
Nick,
Some more thoughts.
I strongly support Song ……… “I am glad that you blog……..” (comment 1), and Song’s comments are themselves so great to read; also, like Iain (comment 3) I will probably lurk, rather than contribute, after all the personal attention you have devoted to my ‘probing’ – for which many thanks. (particularly re the ‘God made flesh’ biblical quotation) and of course I fully understand that you must move on.
So why am I back? There is a paradox in your blog not being ‘a one-issue forum’, namely that I suspect that many of your contributors come from ‘one-issue places’, typically for example, incredulity about miracles or, as in my case, abhorrence at the centrality of sin. So, without expectation that you will wish to respond, can I just please emphasise the obvious by stressing the importance of such single issues to many people. For the purposes of illustration, and at the risk of appearing totally naïve, if the CofE (for example) could find a way of reinterpreting the two issues I have just raised, then it would instantly find itself able to serve unimaginably huge sections of the population who currently feel alienated from it. My personal non-theological view on the sin issue is that the concept has caused (and continues to cause) immeasurable harm over the centuries, harm which like so many I have had the personal opportunity to observe, and which I believe is recognised by modern psychology. (Incidentally, for a totally sane and balanced view of sin, read all the 13 references from the index of Quaker Faith and Practice; I have quoted elsewhere in Nick’s blog the astonishing (and, in my view, outrageous) stance of the Fellowship of Independent Evangelical Churches: “every aspect of human nature has been corrupted and all men and women are without spiritual life, guilty sinners and hostile to God”).
In conclusion, I cannot thank you enough for your robust dismissal of those who try to hi-jack your blog (fat chance!) for their own purposes. I am certain that most of my co-bloggers come to this blog quite simply to get away from the sterile thinking that a tiny number of people seem to find useful in their lives, and that they wish to impose on the rest of us. We come to find a breath of fresh air ……… we seek and we find! And for the record, I came to this blog because I was stimulated by your Radio Times feature, and I don’t think being a Bishop had anything to do with it.
April 11, 2010 at 9:49 pm
i again Nick: Please dont move on as in on and OUT. Just take a breath, let others get on with for awhile, then come back in when you have time to pick up the odd salient thread..
As an atheist I first blogged (March 30 Pullman’s Punches #43) because I can walk past a church (or a mosque for that matter) and hear others engaged in praisegiving or prayer and can be moved to accept that communal acts of self surrender to a common purpose can be powerfully evocative and that cultural expressions of religous belief can indeed enrich a secular society. (Self surrender in this sense can of course be equally dangerous, just as religion adherence in many contexts has lead to cultural impoverishment.) This puts you personally in a powerful position: as a side issue, I wonder if you reflect often upon this?
Like (I think) Kevin K, I am no way and aggressive or ‘fundamentalist’ athiest. I am more bemused , intrigued perhaps,. by your situation. As for children – yours , mine, KK’s – far from proof, the most they can offer are demonstrations of their love for us. Scientifically speaking, demonstrations can do no more than help validate a theory, though they can destroy one at a stroke. Does your God demonstrate his love in the same way? How? An atheist might be tempted to observe that the counter demonstrations might seem a bit overwhelming…
Finally, while fully understanding the impossibility of your engaging in extended theological debate, I do think the essential question re the interpretation of the Scriptures remains, whether you are talking about Virgin birth or Conception or any other manifestation of a divine will – namely whether a metaphysical world can somehow intersect with the physical. If there is no contempory evidence of that, then the case surely must rest with the sceptics, who not necessarily feel the less keenly for it. ..
April 11, 2010 at 11:08 pm
Noel,
I avoided Christianity for quite some time because of “single issue” topics including the ones you mention, and because of some of the hypocrisy I saw in the church was very distressing to me.
I think for some of these issues there is no easy resolution.
The church or the Church will always be made up of human beings, imperfect and fallible, and this means there will be errors, there will be hurt, there will be hypocrisy… the Church is as much in need of forgiveness as any human being might be.
Miracles stopped being such a problem for me when I was able to let go of the insistence that every word in the Bible must be either true or false. This is a collection of writings that talks about trees clapping their hands, valleys full of corn singing. So I don’t ask myself whether the Red Sea really actually parted or what the scientific explanation might be for such a strange occurrence… I ask myself what the story of the parting of the Red Sea says about God, about human beings and God’s relationship with them, about how humans behave toward one another. That’s quite difficult at times — I really don’t get the vengeful, jealous God that goes around smiting Israel’s enemies — but when I remember that these texts were written down by people who were interpreting the political and social realities of their time, it’s a little easier again.
I am not sure how I feel about the doctrine of total depravity, which I think is what the FIEC are on about. Total depravity of humankind seems to me to conflict with humans being made in the image of God. Central to both ideas is the concept of dependence on God — in total depravity the focus is on redemption or salvation as God’s work (not ours), and in creation the focus is on God as Creator. Perhaps both perspectives are useful, but both can have an unpleasant, hurtful side: if I go around proclaiming that humanity is utterly depraved and sinful then yes, there may be some damage, but if I go around proclaiming that I am made in the image of God and therefore can do no wrong, that isn’t actually much better.
Personally I think of sin and sinfulness not as something that is always due to willful disobedience, but as “missing the mark”, being imperfect, faulty not in the sense of being devoid of worth but of being slightly cracked. Leonard Cohen wrote, “Forget your perfect offering. There is a crack in everything. That’s how the light gets in.” From that perspective I find the focus on sin not harmful, but a wonderful antidote to my own destructive perfectionism.
Of course, I can’t speak for the Church of England or any other church on these matters; I write of my own experiences and perspectives to (relatively briefly) illustrate that someone as involved in church as I am can also be someone who has genuinely struggled with some of these issues. I’m not going to attempt comment on the doctrine of the Trinity, which was for many years my big “but it just doesn’t make SENSE!” issue, except to note that an awful lot of people can’t understand it.
The thing that drew me back to church, in the end, wasn’t so much having my questions answered, or finding clergy who were perfect, or managing to agree with all the doctrines, or any real resolution of my long-standing issues. Instead, it was encountering people who do their level best to live by their faith, and who make a real difference to the world in doing so as they care for others with lovingkindness. It was encountering a parish church that acknowledges it is imperfect but still strives to welcome everyone unconditionally, even heretics like me, yet never once has put pressure on me to do anything I didn’t want to do. I guess you could say I got tangled up with the right people, as I was very much on the receiving end of a lot of lovingkindness and open-armed welcome. It’s notable that some of the most influential people have been those who didn’t debate theology with me at all, and don’t make a habit of trying to argue or coerce anyone into belief.
I am perhaps a poor example, because nobody ever had to convince me of the existence of God. But what I have found is that in the light of such unconditional lovingkindness, in the searing hope that this flawed and imperfect human affection might be based on the love that God has for us, many of my “single issue” problems, though still distressing, become less important to me than making that love known and thanking God. I suppose to a staunch atheist that might sound a bit like “Well, it doesn’t matter that these people are a touch insane, because they’re very nice to me,” which of course falls apart the second someone hurts my feelings. That’s inside out, though: it’s more like these people strive to love others well because they themselves are just a tiny bit insane. The only way I know how to respond is to try and help.
April 12, 2010 at 8:19 am
Dear Song: You seem almost to be saying that it is enough that God exists in the hearts of the faithful..
This is a crucial point because mankind, it its God-given dominion over the earth , has managed, along with creating marvels of art and science, to poison its lakes and rivers, pollute its seas and atmosphere and wipe out getting on for half his fellow species, not to mention conducting the most murderous vengeful wars which even the most territorial of animals, once they have chased off the competition, do not indulge in. It is a fair bet that at some time, if not in the next few millenia, man will manage to render himself extinct as well, and where will God be then, if he exists only in the hearts of the faithful?
I dont mean to be unduly pessimistic , but beyond the ‘small cracks that let in the light’ there may be a greater crack and the light of a harsh and terrible reality…
April 13, 2010 at 5:25 am
Tony,
“You seem almost to be saying that it is enough that God exists in the hearts of the faithful..”
No, that is not what I am saying at all, though I note that your question about what happens if the human race manages to drive itself to extinction is also asked by the writer of Psalm 30 in verse 9 (“…Will the dust praise you or declare your faithfulness?”).
I believe that God exists whether humans believe in God or not. In my comment 26 on this post I am not talking about why I believe in God (which I have discussed at great length elsewhere), but attempting to explain some of why I participate in the Church of England, and how I currently feel about some of the doctrinal issues.
April 13, 2010 at 1:53 pm
Tony Lambert,
I agree with what you say (above) & thanks for the x-reference.
A minor point.. The difference between the ‘Virginal Conception’ and the ‘Virgin Birth’ is surely 9 months . (Sorry, it’s a very cheap joke but I just couldn’t resist it).
I think I am a “Fundamentalist Atheist”. I’ve asked on one of these blogs before (with no helpful response) what is a ‘non-fundamentalist’ atheist?. I’ve read A.C Grayling on this (just to prove that I too can read). How do you see it ?
I suspect that Nick did not intend this blog to turn into a theological debate, but more as a way of preaching to the converted. I might be wrong (I often am, I’m human), but his RT article, and the backhanded smack in the face of we unthinking atheists was a mistake.
Finally, do not be so despondent. If the human race destroys itself it will be our fault, not god’s. Afterwards, the insects will take over this planet, and they are god’s creatures too.
KK
April 14, 2010 at 8:21 am
Hi Nick,
I’ve just picked up this discussion and apologise for changing the subject slightly but I’d just like to ask if you think any of your bishop colleagues would be up for a formal debate with Dawkins?
I’m asking especially about evangelical bishops, as so far he has only agreed to debate liberals- very odd as he himself thinks their world view is incoherent. He refuses to debate strong opponents like William Lane Craig, because he says he will only engage with someone who has the status of a bishop.
His bluff needs to be called. We need a well prepared, serious and articulate opponent to stand up and expose his errors. Are there any bishops with debating experience and a coherent theistic worldview who fit the bill, do you think?
April 14, 2010 at 7:11 pm
Matt, yes. Tom Wright (Durham), Lee Rayfield (Swindon) are the two who spring to mind: Tom a leading theologian and historian, Lee a former professional research scientist. But, I think RD is unlikely to agree.
April 14, 2010 at 9:01 pm
To Kevin K: Not sure if this was ever intended to be a forum for one athiest to debate another, but I am not a fundamentalist anything. Latin, fundamentum, ‘foundation’ – the foundation of my house is rocks, and I felt good about that until I learned that stone like everything else is nothing more than tiny discreet bundles of energy held together by strong and weak molecular forces (I am especially worried about the weak) in what is effectively mostly empty space, and lying in bed at night one could get a sort of sinking feeling about that…
On a cosmic scale, in some parallel version of the scriptures, is the man who builds his house on a foundation of rock much better off after all than than the man who builds on sand? Science too is not altogether the rock we want it to be, though its arguably the best weve got…
To Song: My reading of Psalm 30 is that the writer is crying out to God for physical preservation, in fact almost challenging God (in the way that such arguments or challenges are encouraged in Judaism) to preserve him in order that praisegiving may continue. That is rather a neat contract, to tell God that he needs Man as much as the reverse. Or is it blackmail? In any case, if God does exist outside of the hearts of the faithful, His fate still is rather linked, wouldn’t you say, to that of mankind. Great. I always knew I didnt have to worry about that old A-bomb..
April 14, 2010 at 10:32 pm
Any denomination will have two sorts of churches in it, those who are progressive and those who hide behind religion. The progressive ones try to emulate the welcome atmosphere mentioned by Song and make those in need welcome. Others who pretend to ‘do’ welcome are not at all welcoming while others just do not try. Find out for yourself in any town or city any Sunday morning. Where ‘welcome’ does happen answers to these questions will also be found because there the gospel is being lived out as Jesus told his followers to do. If questions of belief cannot be answered by a caring church there is not much point in having ‘faith’ at all.
April 15, 2010 at 10:41 am
A debate between Tom Wright and RD would be great (don’t know anything about Lee Rayfield). Based on previous behaviour, I also think an acceptance from RD is unlikely.