I was listening to Bruce Cockburn in the car while on my way to visit one of my clergy this morning. The first track on his last album, Small Source of Comfort, is called ‘The Iris of the World’ and one verse calls into question the ability of certain people to ‘get the disconnect’ between perception and reality.
I had just been musing on two pieces of news: (a) the refusal of some prominent atheists to debate publicly with William Lane Craig – not on personalities or assertions, but arguments and evidence, and (b) the furore over the mere suggestion that people considering abortions should be offered counselling before they go ahead with the termination. It reminded me of the response to the most detailed research into the nature of childhood – the Good Childhood report by the Children’s Society – when many commentators, unable to criticise the research, decided that the conclusions were inconvenient to their chosen values, choices or lifestyle and, therefore, rejected them.
The common denominator here is a prevalence in our society to start with conclusions and then try to find evidence to support them. In the absence of evidence, assertion will suffice. The problem here is that those doing the asserting are also the same people who constantly demand from everybody else ‘rational evidence’ for their position.
Take the first issue first. An fellow Oxford atheist philosopher, Dr Daniel Came, has written to Richard Dawkins accusing him of cowardice for refusing to debate with Professor William Lane Craig. Dawkins is not alone: Polly Toynbee and AC Grayling have also declined to debate and it is hard not to conclude that this unwillingness is born of fear rather than rationality. I am still waiting for a response to David Bentley Hart’s The Atheist Delusions and the substantive philosophical and historical refutation of the lazy and unargued-for assertions of the so-called New Atheists he offers. Is it fear that the evidence won’t back up the assertions that puts them off? If not, then what?
David Bentley Hart’s argument – backed up with copious historical analysis and evidence – is essentially that the pre-Christian world actually saw human life as expendable and cheap. What he terms ‘the Christian revolution’ brought about a ‘universal’ valuing of human life, of mercy and justice that did not hold sway beforehand. He then questions whether, in the post-Christendom world, the assumption of universal human niceness can honestly be held if the Christian worldview and associated praxis are removed. In other words, who says that the ‘neutral’ or natural default of human beings is to be nice to each other, to love justice and mercy, to protect the weak and vulnerable, etc? History would seem to demonstrate that such an assumption can not only not be taken for granted, but is actually called into question by the evidence.
Now, this comes to mind because we now live in a culture in which many people think it is OK to have abortion on demand as a sort of right (or routine method of birth control) and for life to be ended where there appears to be any suffering. In other words, we live in a culture which appears to wish to make decisions about the ethics of living and dying in isolation from a common understanding of the worldviews underlying such a position, or the implications of adopting it. Such discussion needs to go deeper and longer than a simple case-by-case judgement on the sentiments and sensibilities of personal circumstances as we go along.
I am not and have never been opposed to abortion per se. But, when you step back a bit and ask what our culture is shaping and on what philosophical basis the moves are being made, there must be cause for genuine concern. Abortion is not trivial; it is not like taking an aspirin for a headache.
That’s why I am wondering: why the outcry about the suggestion that people be asked to think before opting for an abortion? What’s the problem? Yes, there is a massive pastoral issue in supporting people – whatever decision they ultimately make. Yes, there are circumstances where such decisions are enormously complicated. Yes, the ethical responsibilities are not always clear. But, so are the deeper cultural questions that relate to what sort of a culture we are both losing and creating. Even if we don’t agree with the rationale behind the current proposals, that doesn’t let us off the hook of asking the question.
There is a question here for anyone interested in how cultures are shaped and what makes civilisations come and go. I am compelled to agree with David Bentley Hart – with his excoriating judgement on the post-Enlightenment twentieth century state’s proclivity for enormous and technologically organised violence – that we are in danger of glancing along the surface of time, making ad hoc decisions about life and death, but in the absence of any ‘deep’ analysis or rational thought about essential values. It cannot be taken for granted that, left alone and de-religionised (or de-christianised), human beings will ‘naturally’ tend towards goodness, kindness and mercy. Christianity was, in one sense, a response to the evidenced absence of such a corporate nature.
So, what is the philosophical case for assuming that we can do what we want to do simply because we can? And who is to decide what is, or is not, acceptable? And to whom?
August 31, 2011 at 1:51 pm
Re abortion, it’s not a matter of whether couples (?) should not have counselling before abortion, but the kind of counselling they would receive. Whilst it could be argued that at the moment, they get biased counselling, ie from the organisations that would perform the abortions, those campaigning for ‘independent’ counselling seem to be anything but that – representatives of the hard Christian Right who are against any kind of abortion. So genuine person centred counselling yes, but off shoots of the American Moral Majority, no.
August 31, 2011 at 2:11 pm
Right on!
When it comes to militant atheists, I find it difficult to understand the culotural assumptions on which they base their views. There is indeed a fundamental disconnect, and I am not sure whether they are unwilling or unable to accept it.
If I weren’t a Christian I would probably be a nihilist, and many militant atheists seem to adopt a nihilist worldview, which would imply that nothing has value. If one points this out to them, they say that many atheists are more moral than many Christians and just because a person is an atheist does not necessarily mean that they are immoral. I don’t doubt that that is true, but one needs Christian moral values in order to know that it is true.
August 31, 2011 at 2:27 pm
“Dawkins is not alone: Polly Toynbee and AC Grayling have also declined to debate and it is hard not to conclude that this unwillingness is born of fear rather than rationality”
Why do you conclude that Dawkins, Toynbee, & Grayling are afraid?
Reading their articles, listening to and watching their interviews on radio & television, it seems to me that they are quite capable of looking after themselves, and are quite unafraid of challenging creationists.
August 31, 2011 at 3:36 pm
I completely agree with your last sentence of your last-but-one paragraph!
August 31, 2011 at 5:22 pm
Tony Whatmough, I agree. But, informed help in understanding the implications of decisions is essential.
August 31, 2011 at 5:23 pm
Kevin K, you have to ask why they consistently refuse to debate with particular theistic philosophers or historians. I thought the letter from the atheist philosopher (to which I put a link) was rather pointed.
August 31, 2011 at 5:50 pm
Nick,
I think the assumption that people treat abortion as trivial is problematic. I certainly don’t think it is a trivial procedure — even the morning-after pill is said to be a much more unpleasant experience than taking an aspirin for a headache — and of those people I know who feel able to be open about having had an abortion, none of them have treated it as trivial. The idea that women blithely choose abortion as a primary form of birth control despite its risks compared to various contraceptives, and that those who currently carry out abortions are not concerned with helping women make the best decisions for themselves in any pre-abortion counselling they receive, seems to me to be deeply patronising.
I don’t believe that the current legislation discourages women from careful consideration of the ethical and moral issues involved in terminating a pregnancy. I worry that another layer of bureaucracy will make a heart-wrenching decision even more painful for women who are already under considerable stress. Nothing I have read so far has convinced me that this legislation will empower women rather than shaming them.
Carrying a pregnancy to full term (or for as long as it might last without intervention) is also not trivial. Let’s not forget that. If we are going to infantilise women with regard to the choice of whether to carry a pregnancy to full term, should we really be foisting upon them the responsibility of motherhood?
August 31, 2011 at 7:09 pm
“I am not and have never been opposed to abortion per se.”
Why not? What do think abortion is? Where do you, as an Anglican bishop, think Catholic moral teaching is wrong on this question? Of course the issue is exceptionally painful. All moral questions of any significance are.
August 31, 2011 at 7:22 pm
#1:”….. representatives of the hard Christian Right who are against any kind of abortion.”
You mean the Roman Catholic Church?
“So genuine person centred counselling yes, but off shoots of the American Moral Majority, no.”
It’s important to feel better than hose knuckle-dragging Americans, isn’t it, Tony? Because England is soooo devout and moral, isn’t it?
(As a side issue, one day in the distant future some historian will wonder how it happened that by 2011 the greatest demographic shift in Britian’s history (1/7 of the population being born abroad) happened c. 1980-2011 and wil conclude it was when the British gave up on having children themselves. Nothing unique about the UK in this, though – it has happened throughout Europe where abortion has been embraced.)
August 31, 2011 at 7:25 pm
#2: Craig isn’t a “creationist”, if by that you mean a Young Earth Creationist. He beleives in the ‘big bang’ and a 13.7 byo universe. I don’t know what he thinks about evolution.
August 31, 2011 at 7:54 pm
Kevin,
challenging creationists is easy, most Christians do it all the time.
August 31, 2011 at 11:12 pm
I like Dawkins’ response (re: debate): “I have no intention of assisting Craig in his relentless drive for self-promotion…”
September 1, 2011 at 8:22 am
Kieran
all moral questions of any significance are indeed very painful. And they are also very complex, that’s what makes them painful. They’re not black and white, right and wrong.
You know all the answers as well as anyone else here: there is abortion after rape, when the foetus is so damaged that it will not survive long after birth, when the mother’s health is in serious danger….
The Roman Catholic absolute “no” is as immoral as the “it’s my body I can do with it what I like” absolute “yes”.
It’s usually men who find this an easy question. But if you could put yourself in that hypothetical position of being pregnant and knowing that giving birth to this not-yet-baby is highly likely to kill you, would you really believe that an absolute, unquestioning “no” to abortion is remotely moral?
Would you really be willing to give up your own life for that moral certainty?
September 1, 2011 at 9:29 am
Many atheists are willing to debate, but find they have been banned from speaking by religious people.
Happily, it is rare to find somebody who refuses to allow atheists to post on their blogs.
As for William Lane Craig, wouldn’t you be scared to debate somebody who writes articles claiming it is right to kill children if they would otherwise have grown up to thwart God’s plans?
I quote Craig’s exact words ‘God knew that if these Canaanite children were allowed to live, they would spell the undoing of Israel. The killing of the Canaanite children not only served to prevent assimilation to Canaanite identity but also served as a shattering, tangible illustration of Israel’s being set exclusively apart for God.’
Craig’s solution is for his alleged god to have all the children killed.
Then they wouldn’t be able to wreck his plans.
September 1, 2011 at 10:17 am
‘What he terms ‘the Christian revolution’ brought about a ‘universal’ valuing of human life, of mercy and justice that did not hold sway beforehand’
Aren’t you pleased you don’t live in a place where the Christian revolution never happened? Where are such places? Israel, perhaps? Saudi Arabia? China?
September 1, 2011 at 11:38 am
Particularly like the part about “universal human niceness”… are we, or aren’t we? Lots of Christians are, many aren’t; lots of non-Christians are, many aren’t…
I’m not a fan of the ‘original sin’ idea that we are born bad, because I think there is a large amount of inherent goodness in humanity, but unless that is harnessed and channelled, sadly it loses out to the more vocal and dominant human nastiness, self-preservation, and simply mediocrity. But not, as you so often say, neutrality, because no-one can be neutral.
We need to be aware of what and who informs our opinions and judgements, and why they are doing so.
September 1, 2011 at 11:46 am
I see that Stephen Law has agreed to debate with William Lane Craig on the 17th October 2011 at Westminster Hall.
September 1, 2011 at 1:42 pm
Craig believes in ‘Intelligent design’, a souped-up version of creationism.
It turns out that Dawkins has indeed debated Craig before, albeit as a team event
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2r4HsAYuWyk . I cannot find the full debate anywhere.
As to the Telegraph article, I thought we no longer took any notice of the biased media ?
On abortion, I find it difficult to believe that any woman does not ‘think, before having an abortion. Cathy Newman has an interesting analysis at http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/factcheck-cutting-through-the-rhetoric-on-abortion/7636
September 1, 2011 at 3:38 pm
Erika writes:
“Kieran, all moral questions of any significance are indeed very painful. And they are also very complex, that’s what makes them painful.”
No, complexity doesn’t make an issue painful; rather, it’s the outcome and cost of a decision. If abortion is not the taking of a human life, then it is no more morally troublesome than having a mole removed. By way of comparison, would you seek to hasten the death of an elderly relative from whom you might inherit (if care costs don’t eat it all up first)?
“They’re not black and white, right and wrong.”
Actually Christian morality IS about determining right from wrong. That’s what the application of reason and revelation is all about.
“You know all the answers as well as anyone else here: there is abortion after rape,
- actually pretty rare but the one that is always cited
” when the foetus is so damaged that it will not survive long after birth,”
- again rare and covered by legislation
“when the mother’s health is in serious danger…”
- also rare and covered at least since R v. Bourne.
“The Roman Catholic absolute “no” is as immoral as the “it’s my body I can do with it what I like” absolute “yes”.”
No, there’s something wrong with your Moral Equivalency Compass there. I’m sure you know as well as I do (because I’ve taught on the subject) that the three ‘hard cases’ you mention about account fro less than 5% of abortions in the UK. About 95%+ of abortions are given on fraudulent grounds, as I’m sure you know. so there is little point trotting out these examples.
But to return to your second clause (‘It’s my body..’), this is actually central to the modern secularist feminist agenda (shared by secualr men as much as women) which is to separate sex from responsibility and marital commitment. Post-Christian western people (which means most of Britain) really do find it bizarre to think sex should only be within marriage, because they have grown up believing contraception, abortion – and penicillin! – can insulate them from the revenge of Eros. And from Conscience too?
But my question was to Nick. I am rather surprised that someone from an evangelical background (whatever he believes now) could say he has ‘never been against abortion’ and I wonder if that is because he has never thought too clearly about the nature of abortion – which suggests to that some evangelicals don’t give moral theology the attention it needs. I take it for read that liberals have no problem with abortion because they tend toward reductionism in anthropology and utilitarianism in ethics. Rowan Williams is no evangelical but is a general foe of abortion.
September 1, 2011 at 4:12 pm
“I see that Stephen Law has agreed to debate with William Lane Craig on the 17th October 2011 at Westminster Hall.”
This is good to hear. I had to google Law and see he is an atheist philosopher at Heythrop – what cunning people these Jesuits are! He doesn’t have the “fame” of the others but a bit of philosophy can’t hurt.
September 1, 2011 at 4:57 pm
Keiran,
I can’t speak for Nick, but the bit where I think Catholic moral teaching may be in error on the subject of abortion is in the idea that once an egg is fertilised it is a person.
I don’t think anything supernatural happens at conception — or nothing supernatural that isn’t already present in the rest of creation. The question is not whether it is wrong to kill an unborn person but at what point a foetus can be considered a person.
Mosaic law differentiates between harm done to a foetus and harm done to a person. (Compare Exodus 21:16 with Exodus 21:22)
How do you define personhood?
September 1, 2011 at 5:51 pm
[...] (!?) to fellow Blogging Bishop Nick Baines (now of Bradford) for reminding me not just to enjoy the book’s existence but get out there and [...]
September 1, 2011 at 6:34 pm
“I don’t think anything supernatural happens at conception — or nothing supernatural that isn’t already present in the rest of creation. The question is not whether it is wrong to kill an unborn person but at what point a foetus can be considered a person.”
I think that’s right, and equally pertinent is your last question ‘how do you define personhood?’ Personhood isn’t a set of biological characteristics, which can be lacking in the post-born as well as the pre-born. If killing a newborn is murder, is that because cutting an umbilicus confers a different ontological status? But that would be very arbitrary. “Personhood” is a legal and a religious concept, not a biological one. Are the preborn members of the human family with rights, including the most fundamental, the right to life?
Traditional Christian theology works with the idea of ensoulment. Materialist secularism rejects this idea, while secular ideologues still use the language of rights and personhood, while undermining their actual metaphysical basis – which takes us back to Nick’s reference to David Hart. The pagan classical world had no problem with abortion – or exposing newborns, or slavery. The sslave, the unborn, the unwanted child were all sub-human in its eyes.
Cicero, that noblest of Romans, could happily instruct the disposal by exposure of his own daughter.
September 1, 2011 at 6:54 pm
I wasn’t totally fair to Cicero (I was recalling an infamous letter noted here: http://christiancadre.org/member_contrib/cp_infanticide.html ) but he did defend the practice of infanticide for others, as did Seneca and most pagan intellectuals. So Communist China has precedents on its side!
i cannot but think a deep searing of consciences has taken place over much of the world. Abortion was of course one of the central policies of the Soviet Union and it continues so today, even as the population of Russia is going into free fall.
September 1, 2011 at 7:36 pm
Kieran,
that my examples were very very rare is completely beside the point.
For an absolutist position to be moral it must be moral in every extreme case.
If there is a single case where it isn’t moral, we’re already in the realm of relativism and we’re only arguing about its extent.
September 1, 2011 at 10:45 pm
Kieran
“The question is not whether it is wrong to kill an unborn person but at what point a foetus can be considered a person.”
And there, the Roman Catholic position is as ambiguous as many others. The RC church does not offer a funeral for an early miscarriage, far less provide it as a matter of course, as it would surely do if it believed that a person had died.
It can be very dogmatic and absolutist about some moral positions when it suits it, but it is by no means consistent in this.
September 2, 2011 at 12:28 am
Thanks Nick, it was a thought provoking article. As to whether man’s nature is malevolent as opposed to communal, I think that there is an innate pleasure in pleasing another human being, that I don’t think can be waived away as Christian culture influences…
As a general response to the above comments (having recently come across William Lane Craig’s website) I think it is unfair to say that he is simply trying to publicise himself; his CV is considerably full, and prestigious in philosophical/academic circles. I would also point out that the young-earth-creationist standpoint is wildly different in nature to that of intelligent-design, and it is perhaps naive/ignorant to suggest otherwise.
September 2, 2011 at 6:31 am
“For an absolutist position to be moral it must be moral in every extreme case.
If there is a single case where it isn’t moral, we’re already in the realm of relativism and we’re only arguing about its extent.”
You are confusing the difference between strict morality (seeking to live as true, regenerate Christians in the Kingdom of Christ) and the practical issues of living in a fallen and unbelieving world. Remember the (in)famous words of Thomas Aquinas on the toleration of prostitution. Sin is with us until the Lord returns. But the Church must always witness to the truth, and keep out of the moral confusion of unbelieving liberalism.
You should read Hadley Arkes on the subject of how you change people’s mind by seeking moral clarity, by learning the truth of what we are doing. That’s what the whole issue of partial-birth abortion was about: getting people to understand the nature of the act. “Liberals” prefer to be ignorant, not to talk about it, to keep others in the dark. Where is the moral courage or integrity in that? Is the pre-born human your brother/sister?
That’s what I’ve been encouraging Nick to see – as, I think, Rowan Williams largely has. That’s why you should read the leading Anglican ethicist Oliver O’Donovan and Francis Beckwith. They understand the ethics far better.
September 2, 2011 at 7:24 am
“The RC church does not offer a funeral for an early miscarriage, far less provide it as a matter of course, as it would surely do if it believed that a person had died.”
The Roman Catholics can speak for themselves, but I suspect the reasons are aesthetic and pracical, not theological.
September 2, 2011 at 7:53 am
‘The slave, the unborn, the unwanted child were all sub-human in its eyes.’
Indeed, even Christians like William Lane Craig consider some people to be so evil that the only solution is to kill them,
http://www.reasonablefaith.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=576
‘So whom does God wrong in commanding the destruction of the Canaanites? Not the Canaanite adults, for they were corrupt and deserving of judgement.’
It is hardly suprising that Christians clamour for such a person as their champion to take on atheists.
September 2, 2011 at 7:57 am
Nick, I agree with a lot of what you have said, but take issue with your penultimate paragraph – implying that Christianity offers in-depth analysis of ethical issues facing society. As Grayling points out, the problem with Christian analysis is that it leads back to revelation. At some point you end up saying “that is bad because God says so”. After a quarter of a century as a fully committed Christian in numerous Protestant denominations, I finally drew back from it all because I had observed that Christianity doesn’t make people good. There is obviously a bias in that lots of people choose Christianity in order to become good, but I think that if you compared the Church with the Polite Society, there wouldn’t be a lot of difference. Sadly, it seems to me that the Church can not offer secular society much advice on morality.
September 2, 2011 at 10:41 am
Ironic that William Lane Craig should come up with the best argument for systematic abortion!
“Moreover, if we believe, as I do, that God’s grace is extended to those who die in infancy or as small children, the death of these children was actually their salvation. We are so wedded to an earthly, naturalistic perspective that we forget that those who die are happy to quit this earth for heaven’s incomparable joy. Therefore, God does these children no wrong in taking their lives.”
September 2, 2011 at 1:26 pm
Renny, why do we have to agree with everything William Lane Craig thinks/says before taking seriously the intellectual and philosophical case he makes for theism in principle? And what was the larger argument WLC was making in the piece from which you quote a couple of sentences?
September 2, 2011 at 1:54 pm
“why do we have to agree with everything William Lane Craig thinks/says before taking seriously the intellectual and philosophical case he makes for theism in principle? ”
We don’t of course, just as we don’t have to take seriously everything that Jesus allegedly said, nor anything written in the bible. The problem is that when someone talks nonsense (eg old-earth creationism) it tends to undermine their intellectual credentials.
September 2, 2011 at 2:04 pm
Young Nick:
I have been following this blog for some time now and wonder why you have chosen it as a place to call into question the idea that “Christianity offers in-depth analysis of ethical issues facing society”. That is just what it does do; has always done. In fact, as far as I know, “because God says so” has never been put forward, on this site, as a reason for doing or not doing anything. That is a parody. It is a parody of the idea that there can be any self-evident truths [that is truths that require no proof] but, to take just one example [if one is needed], you will agree, I hope, that no testing is required of the assertion that torture is inhuman and degrading. Some things are known to us ‘a priori’ that is, prior to the testing of their validity or prior to experience.
Also, ‘becoming good’ is not the same thing as becoming a skillful pianist, or a skillful athlete or a skillful technician, where you can expect the results to be measurable and, to some degree, commensurate with the time devoted and the degree of dedication. If you believe that ‘being good’ is better than not you will have to hold to that belief even though there are no fixed criteria by which you can measure your success and no guarantees. It’s your choice whether you belong to a Church or not but don’t pretend that leaving it has anything to do with there being a better or more satisfactory world ‘out there’ in what you term Polite Society. Sadly, secular society can’t offer the Church much advice on morality!
September 2, 2011 at 2:34 pm
Kieran
“You are confusing the difference between strict morality (seeking to live as true, regenerate Christians in the Kingdom of Christ) and the practical issues of living in a fallen and unbelieving world.
I am not confusing anything, thank you very much, I just happen to see things differently.
The world was created as we find it – including natural disasters, miscarriages, appallingly damaged foetuses that turn in to babies who have a very short and painful lifespan, a mother’s fragile health… it would be a great stretch to interpret all of these as “living in a fallen world”.
I live in the world as I find it and my moral compass has to be influenced by that world, not by a perfect one that might exist at the end of time.
And while I live here, there are occasions where 2 conflicting goods have to be weighed up against each other.
And to say “in a perfect world this wouldn’t happen and we have to live as if the world was perfect” is nothing but avoidance of the actual ethical conflict.
September 2, 2011 at 2:49 pm
‘”Liberals” prefer to be ignorant, not to talk about it, to keep others in the dark. Where is the moral courage or integrity in that? Is the pre-born human your brother/sister?’
And this is beneath you if you want to be taken seriously as a thinker.
To dismiss others just because you don’t agree with them and to ascribe them base motives is childish and clouds the whole rest of your argument.
Many Liberals (no inverted commas necessary) know exactly what they are doing and they are not trying to keep others in the dark. They just happen to see the world in shades of gray rather than in black and white, and they know that you will become guilty whatever you do so you have to choose the evil you can live with best.
There is a huge amount of moral courage and integrity in accepting that.
The “pre-born human” is an interesting phrase.
People who support completely free abortion as completely moral tend to talk of a handful of cells.
People who are completely against any abortion tend to talk of a baby that is being murdered.
The choice of words betrays the philosophy.
So, no, the early stage foetus is not my brother or sister to the same extent that the already living woman is my sister. If there is a conflict of interest, it is possible to make a case for saying that the living adult is more important than the not yet living foetus.
The pre-born human, should it face nothing but a very short and painful life, is not best served by being born. A very religious friend of mine once suffered an induced abortion because her baby was diagnosed as hydrocephalus and would only have lived for a few hours if it survived birth at all. It doesn’t help her at all to tell her that this was an evil act by a selfish “liberal”. Have some sense of what you’re talking about here! And some compassion and respect for the actual people involved in all of this!
At the very least, acknowledge that your stance can bring with it untold suffering and that you are willing to impose this on others. At best, accept that your choices (for others!) aren’t the only ethically possible ones and let everyone make their own decisions without throwing stone at them.
True moral courage and integrity require that you see and accept the dark consequences of your ethics as much as the positive ones.
September 2, 2011 at 6:50 pm
Nick, Craig was justifying the ethnic cleansing of the Canaanites. The quote follows on from the one posted in a previous comment, so I havent been searching deliberately for nutty quotes in his work, it kind of jumped out at me!
I dont think you would let an atheist, however eloquent, get away with such a ill thought out and disturbing argument. I know I wouldnt.
September 2, 2011 at 8:59 pm
Dearsoeur, Thanks for your comment. Re:Christianity offering in-depth analysis of ethical issues affecting society: I agree that the Church has offered ethical judgements for probably its whole existence. But does it have the right to offer these judgements to people who don’t accept Christians’ foundational premises? For those Christians who believe in the Bible, and want to please God, the motivation of ethical practice can usually be traced back to the will of God as revealed in the Bible. I, too, know many wonderful Christians who wrestle with ethical issues in a logical and persuasive way. In fact, the reason that I’m here reading Nick’s blog is that I respect what he writes. However, was I wrong in thinking that you’re an Evangelical, Nick? You don’t have to answer that if it would endanger your job!
Are there any truths that are truly self-evident? Perhaps even these should be driven further back to see why they are so definitely true to us. There are probably people who would call themselves Christians, who would feel that in certain circumstances, torture is justified.
Re: “becoming good” – you could read “becoming holy”. To me, the pusuit of holiness, in its wider meaning, is one of the highest human ambitions, within the context of relating to God. I agree that goodness, or holiness, is not a quantitative virtue, although I would hope that it would be evident. “Let your light so shine before men …” Sadly, I have seen Church Treasurers embezzling funds, Pastors run off with their Secretaries, and enough conflict between branches of the same church (women bishops, anyone?) to come to the conclusion that there’s little empirical evidence of the Church being in a position to give advice on ethics. I agree that the world out there is on the whole a lot worse, but there are some secular ethicists who are trying to work out a framework of ethics without recourse to unverifiable “revelation”. After all, what is revelation to one religion is anathema to another. Who should I believe?
(oh, apologies for reference to The Polite Society – a mythical society where people try to be nice to one another)
September 2, 2011 at 9:30 pm
All the talk of ‘personhood’ is utterly superfluous and unnecessary, not only from a Christian perspective, but from any perspective that grants that ending a unique, innocent, human life — all of which a just-conceived embryo is necessarily, by definition — is wrong. Which most people do. Before embryology there was a grey area there (which, when entered into should obviously choose to err on the side of don’t-kill, as well as don’t-allow-mother-to-legally-kill), but the grey area no longer exists. Or it exist during the brief moment a new DNA is being formed.
To quote David Hart: “Not only is every abortion performed an act of murder, but so is the destruction of every “superfluous” embryo created in fertility clinics or every embryo produced for the purposes of embryonic stem cell research. Even if, say, research on embryonic stem cells could produce therapies that would heal the lame, or reverse senility, or repair a damaged brain, or prolong life, this would in no measure alter the moral calculus of the situation: human life is an infinite good, never an instrumental resource; human life is possessed of an absolute sanctity, and no benefit (real or supposed) can justify its destruction.”
For a Christian, it isn’t an open question, and there is no subtlety or nuance to maneuver through. The question is only slightly more unsure for a non-Christian, and none more if the person submits to the single premise in my first paragraph (which all sane, rational, moral adults do).
September 2, 2011 at 11:30 pm
Young Nick,
I don’t try to be a “better” or “holier” person because God says so.
I try to treat others with respect and even (dare I say it?) love because I believe that they are beloved children of God, made in God’s image. I do want to please God, but please understand this is out of gratitude rather than fear. I want to please God the way I want to please anyone I love dearly.
Churches are made up of human beings and as a result of this they do tend to be imperfect. I was so disillusioned with hypocrisy that I left the church of my childhood and nearly converted to Judaism. Now I am something of an accidental Anglican, and the C of E makes me absolutely livid several times per day, with its internal squabbles and institutionalised prejudice. But it is also the context in which I have encountered what I can only call grace. It has been at church, or in connection with it, that I have been treated with unconditional love and care. The Bible may be a revealed text, but for me the revealed Word has been as much in people as in text. I’d heard the Gospel read aloud, but what swayed me was seeing people acting it out. The revelation isn’t in the written words but in my experience of the living Word.
It is also at church that I practice those things which enable me to be more aware of God in the rest of my life. I am a musician, my work involves a lot of physical and mental training, and I am well aware that what I practice in one context will leak out into others. When I am trying to learn a piece of music I find myself humming it at odd times, absentmindedly tapping out the rhythm of it while I queue at the chemist, using the words (if it has words) in conversations with friends. When I pray regularly in the structure of communal liturgy, I sometimes experience some sense of the holy or numinous, but also my other prayers, my informal, unstructured, spur-of-the-moment day-to-day prayers, change. On some level, the practice of church attendance keeps me connected with God.
No church is perfect. So what? The bucket is dirty, but it still holds water, and it is the water that I need to drink. And there are no clean vessels, or not that I’ve been able to find. There is no religion uncontaminated by human error.
No church is perfect. Neither am I! And yet if I leave, if I say the hypocrisy and the injustice and the infighting are all too much, what happens? The Church of England won’t be made more honest, more just or more peaceable by my leaving and I will lose a community that, as well as causing me pain, sustains and nourishes me. I may as well stick around and keep trying to be part of the dialogue.
Just my tuppence worth, and of course your own experience is different than mine, but I thought it might be useful to have another perspective as a data point.
September 2, 2011 at 11:45 pm
Nathan,
“a unique, innocent, human life — all of which a just-conceived embryo is necessarily, by definition”
I do actually differentiate between a cell or group of cells that is “alive” and something that is “a life”, and implying that I am insane, irrational, immoral or juvenile is a simple ad hominem attack on my character rather than any serious attempt at addressing where we differ.
Would you like to try again?
Furthermore, even were I to agree that personhood (or humanity, if you will) begins at conception and any attempt at abortion wrong, that would not convince me that we should abandon pro-choice legislation. There are situations where only one of mother or foetus can survive, and I can no more say we should save the mother and kill the foetus than I can say we should save the foetus and kill the mother. Erika has already mentioned in comment 36 the problems of living in the world we live in, not some perfect one which might exist at the end of time. In this world we have to choose, sometimes, between two evils.
September 2, 2011 at 11:56 pm
Keiran,
Ensoulment is interesting — I’m not so keen on the whole soul/body dichotomy. I think that e.g. Aquinas’s understanding of ensoulment was based on the biological theories of “quickening” prevalent at the time, and perhaps more pragmatic than we like to think these days.
I think personhood might be correctly linked with some level of consciousness or self-awareness, although I’m not sure what level that is (given that an unconscious adult is still a person, as is a newborn whose self-awareness may be very limited compared to that of, say, a five-year-old), or how on earth we might measure it. This also brings up questions about the potential personhood of other species, too — or is there an ontological difference there?
Conception seems to me to be an entirely arbitrary point for defining personhood.
September 3, 2011 at 1:40 am
All societies at least Modern one’s, seem to live out their days floating on a tide of unexamined assumptions – taking Us wherever It may lead (the Old Progress myth lives on as ‘hope’).
At least Revelation is a concrete starting point. Here is where our Christian Story has its roots, an Assumption about reality which we may declare. the real challenge for the church is not to believe it, but to Live and, if needs be Speak out of it. It seems to me that most popular ‘Christian discourse and living’ is often floating on the directionless tides as that of our neighbours.
This was brought home to me watching Dawkins debate with Alistair McGrath.
It was painful as they both seemed to be starting from an Enlightenment set of presuppositions about Reality and as a result the conversation got nowhere for an hour. this probably explains why it was never transmitted (it can be found on YouTube of course!)
Bentley Hart is trenchant – and scholarly – and also a self confessed Platonist
I Like him a Lot – it’s well worth a read not because of the demolition job he does on the lightweight neo-atheists, but because of the challenging and at times pretty depressing picture he paints of the reality of the contemporary church. For Christians this is its great benefit. Sobering
September 3, 2011 at 2:22 pm
Erika, for what it is worth, I agree with almost everything you have said above.
Fundamentalism is easy. Whether it is religious, or political, or economic, a fundamentalist believes in black and white, nothing in between.
Real life is more complex, there are shades of grey.
September 3, 2011 at 10:43 pm
Erika, the style and content of your arguments strike me as quite secular and humanistic, so I don’t think we can have a meeting of minds. I am a Christian pastor trying to clarify the teaching of the Scriptures and holy tradition of the Church on personhood and human life, so I can’t really engage with your ideas, which come from a different universe of discourse. But I’m amazed to read that you don’t know that the “foetus” (Latin for ‘soffsrping’) IS in fact alive.
What I really wanted to know if why Nick, as a bishop, thinks the way he does about abortion and unborn or preborn human lives.
September 3, 2011 at 11:45 pm
“Have some sense of what you’re talking about here! And some compassion and respect for the actual people involved in all of this!
At the very least, acknowledge that your stance can bring with it untold suffering and that you are willing to impose this on others.”
Erika, you do know (I think you do) that c. 97% of abortions have nothing to do with fetal abnormality or a physical danger to the mother’s health. They are based on falsehoods alleged by doctors. 4 million+ abortions since 1967 is, by definiton, ‘untold suffering’.
September 4, 2011 at 12:10 am
No, I got that wrong – the number of abortions in the UK since 1967 is over 7.3 million. Who knew that British women are so unwell?
September 4, 2011 at 11:16 am
#39 Young Nick. A number of things: -
Firstly – my comment about in depth analysis of ethical issues was intended as an observation of this blog in particular [cf., the thread you and I are following?] where there is no “offering” or forcing of judgements on anyone who doesn’t want to hear/read/listen and much committed debate.
Secondly – the truth of the proposition that torture is inhuman and degrading is arrived at without recourse to the world. That is what makes it self-evident. If you know what torture is and you understand the meanings of ‘inhuman’ and ‘degrading’ then you can’t escape the conclusion that any act of torture must, necessarily, be inhuman and degrading. You don’t need further evidence. Anyone who feels that torture is justified [presumably you are thinking of cases where forcing information from one person might save the lives of thousands of others?] does so knowing that it is inhuman and degrading but has been persuaded, in some particular context, that it is the least worst option. The same sort of reasoning is behind e.g. the just war theory and might be applied to the issue of abortion. Everyone knows that, after an abortion [or termination], something that was alive is no longer so. If the something were not alive an abortion would not be necessary. This doesn’t mean that many women won’t decide that, in their particular circumstances, a termination of pregnancy is the least worst option. None of this affects the moral status of abortion. Sometimes tough choices have to be made.
Self evident truths are to be distinguished from contingent ones such as that all tomatoes are red. What makes this only contingently true is that it is possible that you might find a tomato that is blue. Unlikely, but there are certainly green and yellow ones. The redness of a tomato is not necessary to its being a tomato. By contrast, the unpleasant nature of torture *is* what makes it torture.
Thirdly – I do try to let my little light shine but, because I am human and therefore a contingent element in a contingent world, I get things wrong, I mess up. All sorts of people embezzle funds and all sorts of people run off with their secretaries and all human beings get into conflict with other human beings. What does this tell us? Only “That to err is human; to forgive, divine.” Who said that? Not someone who didn’t know his Bible.
September 4, 2011 at 12:59 pm
Katherine,
I agree with you.
At the very least the consequence of an Abortion ought to include some to degree of regret, sadness for what might have been, sense of loss. It may sometimes be considered necessary or the better of two evils but a triumph it is not.
A callousness towards the lost life is potentially a very dangerous position.
September 4, 2011 at 7:49 pm
“It may sometimes be considered necessary or the better of two evils but a triumph it is not.”
Do you mean “lesser”? Evil doesn’t admit of degrees of good.
The doctrine of self-defence and the just war theories allow that innocent human life may be taken if that is unavoidable in the normal course of things – but it can never be the *goal of the action, only the tragic by-product (doctrine of double effect), and Christian moral agents seek to *reduce bad consequences (e.g. through adoption).
English Protestants who want ot reamin Christian could do with learning some moral theology from the Catholic tradition (rather than the pages of Cosmopolitan or The Guardian) – and certainly from the great Anglican ethicist Oliver O’Donovan. To allude to a point from O’Donovan, if an argument for abortion also justifies infanticide (and much of what I have read above does exactly that), then the plot is well and truly lost.
September 4, 2011 at 8:54 pm
I think this thread has probably run its course. I have not had time to respond properly – I have a day job – but have read all the comments before approving them. But, here’s a quick response before we close the thread down.
I am grateful to those who wrote with passion and compassion, illustrating perfectly the fact that Christians are not monochrome, that moral dilemmas are not easy or black and white, that some people do not know how to read texts – especially religious texts, and that learning becomes almost impossible when one interlocutor insists that everyone speaks his/her language if his/her view is to be taken seriously. If commentators really are ‘living in different universes of discourse’, there is not a lot of point in keeping the point scoring going.
I find it interesting that my post was actually aimed at questioning the assumptions we bring to ethical questions and whether such assumptions are ad hoc or consciously rooted in a world view from which those ethical tenets can be derived. I obviously failed miserably in getting that point across. The subsequent discussion went straight back to arguments for or against abortion – in one sense, illustrating the point I was trying to make. I thought briefly of responding to the ‘evangelical bishop’ stuff, but I think further digressions into denominational or sectarian definitions is tiresome.
I might say something at greater length in another post about the exercise of pastoral care in circumstances of ethical ambivalence.
However, I come back to a point I often come back to: I find it absurd that in the current debate about abortion the word ‘independent’ is being used to connote ‘objective’ or ‘neutral’. There is no neutral position – on either side of this debate. If ‘Christian groups’ are behind Nadine Dorries’ moves, why are they not legitimate? Is it because they are ‘Christian’?
And I make this point regardless of what I personally might think of some of those groups. There are wider and more important questions behind this issue: why are some ‘groups’ regarded as neutral in propagating their view whilst others are (for no articulated reason) not? According to which criteria and derived from which ethical framework is such a judgement made?
I gather Dorries’ colleagues are jumping ship, but even that looks like pragmatic self-interest rather than principled ethical thinking. On what basis are the judgements being made? Unless I am missing something (and I might be – life is too full just now for me to spend long reading the media), I have still seen no articulated explication of the reasoning behind the deciding. And my point remains unanswered: is our culture sliding uncritically into a world we might not end up wanting or liking, simply by making ad hoc moral decisions without considering how the particular fits into the general – which was David Bentley Hart’s point (regardless of the other stuff people don’t like about him)? It’s a cultural as well as a moral question.
Anyway, more heat than light is being generated on the thread, so I won’t be putting up any further comments.
September 4, 2011 at 10:25 pm
Nick
I know you’ve closed the thread but …
You said in your post that ”
” what is the philosophical case for assuming that we can do what we want to do simply because we can? And who is to decide what is, or is not, acceptable? And to whom?”
I thought I had answered that, maybe only at a very very basic empirical level, and maybe focusing too much on abortion as an example, but nevertheless.
The philosophical case is that we cannot simply do what we want, that we have to evalute 2 conflicting goods and work out on a case by case basis which one is the stronger”.
And who decides – the people most affected by the decision and the people who have to live with its consequences.
You might not agree – but was that not an answer?
September 5, 2011 at 7:26 am
It’s your blog, so you decide. But why you hold your position on abortion remains unclear. Read O’Donovan, Nick.
September 5, 2011 at 1:14 pm
#41 and 49:
Dearsoeur and Katherine, Thank you for your comments, I value what you’ve said and the spirit in which it was said.
September 5, 2011 at 5:59 pm
OK, thanks. Now we move on.
September 12, 2011 at 11:49 pm
As the church are interested in “taking on atheists” (http://coffeelovingskeptic.com/?p=788) then I suspect that there are many areas that atheists would be willing to debate rather than just those pre-selected by the church representatives.