The weather in Munich is terrible. So, all those who think I have come on a jolly will have to think again. I spent today meeting people and getting cold. But I was determined to hang around the enormous Messestadt (Trade Fair Centre) waiting for a unique opportunity to hear two old men have a conversation in the evening.
Hans Küng (82) and Jürgen Moltmann (84) are two giants of late-2oth century German theology. The former is a Roman Catholic who had his permission to teach in the Catholic Faculty of Theology at the University of Tübingen withdrawn by the Pope; the latter is a Protestant whose Theology of Hope breathed new life into german theology and inspired a generation of theologians and preachers. Both have never got stuck, but have developed and applied their theology to the realities of a changing world as they have aged.
This evening was remarkable. Thousands arrived early to ensure a place in the auditorium – I got there for 6.30pm thinking it began at 7pm only to find it was scheduled to start at 7.30pm and didn’t in fact get going until 8pm. More people were locked out than could get in. The excluded crowds chanted ‘Wir wollen rein’ (‘We want to come in’) to listen to these two elderly men talk together about church.
Can you imagine that ever happening in Britain? Most of the excluded were young people eager to garner the wisdom of these two theologians. Why? Because their theology is neither dry nor ‘merely academic’, but engages with the real world of economics, politics and culture. They bring to their subject the intellectual rigour that is associated with German philosophical thinking. Yet, they speak with simplicity, clarity and passion – eschewing theological cleverness in order to communicate accessibly with all-comers: they are remarkable men who show no sign of being ego-driven.
A critical but appreciative audience heard them address five questions:
1. Who are the laity?
2. Who are priests and pastors?
3. Who is the Church?
4. What is ‘ecumenism’ and where is it at today?
5. What does it mean to have fellowship in the name of Jesus Christ?
What ensued was a fascinating and impassioned plea for the Church to get real (in the light of the realities of the world in which we live) and recover its vocation (to be found in the Scriptures we have always had with us). This emerged from introductory statements which had Küng calling for a new Reformation in the Roman Catholic Church – one which unites the Church rather than splitting it further. Moltmann pointed out that the Kirchentag is a lay conference in which the role of bishops is to listen to the laity. I took this to heart…
It is impossible to summarise the contributions of the two men in a way that does justice to their contributions. Küng wants the Roman Catholic Church to change, embracing women priests, abolishing imposed celibacy and uniting the Christian churches in mission and sacramental ministry. For his part, Moltmann sees the future of churches in lay people taking responsibility for their own faith and organising the church in house groups that come together sacramentally. Christians are not ‘customers’, there to ‘visit’ the church, but members who take responsibility for the life of the church. As Küng put it:
A church for the people needs to become a church of the people.
Moltmann wants Christians to maintain a critical solidarity with the church whilst Küng sees exit from the Church as irresponsible (if understandable in the light of the current abuse scandal). Both think all churches need to be reformed in the light of the Gospel. Küng even went so far as to claim that the Pope’s title ‘Servant of the servants of God’ has become in practice ‘the Lord of the lords’ (Herr der Herren).
Both believe that there should be eucharistic hospitality between the churches – Moltmann claiming that generous hospitality is the hallmark of a real church, regardless of the role of the priest/pastor.
Perhaps the most interesting element of the conversation was their agreement that Christians belong together whether they like it or not. “What belongs together grows together” – as Moltmann put it. Jesus’ prayer for the unity (in love) of his people is being answered; the church needs to recognise this and make it visible. Baptism is the fundamental element in our common belonging.
Experience of interreligious dialogue has taught us that Christians need to speak with a single voice in a complicated world – a speaking that must follow on from and not precede genuine humble listening. Both agreed that there is no theological or doctrinal reason for continuing the lack of mutual eucharistic hospitality and both called for an end to the nonsense of ‘excommunication’. Moltmann spoke of the absurdity of mixed-confessional marriages in which at shared services eahc partner goes to a different priest to receive Communion:
What God has joined together let not man divide…
Küng very pointedly criticised the Pope for his recent ‘offer’ to Anglicans and noted that the younger Josef Ratzinger had taken part in eucharistic practices that are inconsistent with the line he now appears to follow. (They were academic and priestly colleagues for many years and still maintian contact.) Moltmann took the view that Christians should be like human beings: eat and drink together first, then discuss theology afterwards. It is a nonsense to do it the other way round…
Both made concluding statements of generosity towards the other’s church. But what will remain in my mind is Moltmann’s contention (not opposed by Küng) to the effect that Protestant should welcome ‘communion with Rome’, but not ‘communion under Rome’. Renewal and a new Reformation are needed as ever.
At the end the two elderly men stood on the stage looking bemused as people like me took photographs. We may never see their like again.
May 15, 2010 at 6:15 am
I’m squirming with jealousy! I’d have given anything to have witnessed that debate. Not that I’d have understood a word of the German, but as you say, we shall probably never see their like again.
So, thanks so much for the English precis. I’ve read Kung (sorry, can never remember where exactly but probably in ‘The Church’) give a similar analyisis of eating together first and discussing afterwards.
Now, how and when can we start implementing it?
May 15, 2010 at 7:08 am
I am glad you go on that sort of “jolly” that means you get to hear inspiring things from 2 elder-statesman of theology, and then précis it for the rest of us! It is inspiring and encouraging, and full of hope. The thing about hope is that what is hoped for seems out of reach… I guess that’s why hope is needed. I hope their hopes for the church are realised… partly that’s down to us, for we are (part of) the church; for the rest, we live in hope…
May 15, 2010 at 7:57 am
Your report is almost as inspiring as the meeting must have been. I am pleased to say that in our Deanery the lay people are beginning to take the initiative in inter- church dialogue and support with our fellow Anglicans. Whilst nowhere near enough- and this is is not instead of talking at Churches Together- I think we are appreciating that the momentum must come from the pews who are less attached/ constrained by Institutional considerations.
For my own selfish part- After being elected to the Deanery Synod I could not bear the idea of sitting meeting after meeting doing nothing of value.
Paradoxically, people used to talk of change being driven by the young, but I suspect that as the baby boomers get to retirement age, the revolution in Church thinking may come from the grey vote who have time, money and a lifetime of restless initiative which they are not yet ready to surrender.
May 15, 2010 at 9:13 am
Hi Nick,
What an insight you have given everyone really good to read, very interesting.
Lovely to read the word jolly, is it a Liverpool saying?
Sincerely
Pauline Ward
May 15, 2010 at 7:13 pm
“Moltmann sees the future of churches in lay people taking responsibility for their own faith and organising the church in house groups that come together sacramentally.” So does that mean lay presidency? (I ask that positively – although ordained I have never been convinced by the arguments for restricting the eucharistic presidency to the clergy). If the answer is “yes”, that would surely rock the boat in a way which would leave the women bishops dispute looking like the merest ripple, and would raise a multitude of very serious questions. But perhaps that is the way forward, and could be the answer to those areas that are desperately struggling with one cleric looking after half-a-dozen or more parishes. I would be interested in your comments, Nick.
May 15, 2010 at 8:56 pm
Sounds like my Kind of people.
As Ive been saying all along. Get REAL.
May 16, 2010 at 11:16 am
”both called for an end to the nonsense of ‘excommunication’.”
Hi Nick,
Do you think excommunication is nonsense?
Are Kung & Moltmann saying that no one should ever be excluded from the church, even if they are an unrepentant sinner and a threat to the spiritual health of the congregation?
May 16, 2010 at 2:01 pm
Lots of Protestant churches have tried to begin and execute better relations with the Catholic Church over the years. One thing which gets in the way is the size, taking in many nations, while most ‘churches’ are of National size. This is minows wooing whales. Unity with the Catholic Church needs to come from the top of the Catholic church, just because it commands such a hugh slice of the christain church.
May 16, 2010 at 3:26 pm
Pauline, I’ve no idea where ‘jolly’ came from. If I was posher, I’d have found an alternative…
May 16, 2010 at 3:32 pm
Trevor, I think you have misunderstood ‘excommunication’. They were principally speaking at that point (I think) about the RC Church’s refusal of communion to all sorts of people. Moltmann expressed the view that when he hears Jesus’s words ‘broken/shed for you’, that includes him – whoever the priest is who is saying the words. My own view is that no one should be excluded from a congregation unless there are serious reasons – ‘a threat to the spiritual health of the congregation’ isn’t one of them. Are we so underconfident that we think one ‘bad’ person can contaminate everyone else instead of all the others contaminating him/her with good? The church must not be a club of the (self-)righteous.
May 16, 2010 at 3:33 pm
John Gilbert, that point was made (in a more nuanced way, admittedly) by Moltmann at the end of the discussion when both speakers were asked to make a final comment.
May 16, 2010 at 3:43 pm
George Day, the question of lay presidency was touched on by Moltmann, but he qualified it with (a) the need for church ‘order’, (b) the appropriateness of the ‘president’ of a community presiding and (c) the clergy learning that they too are part of the ‘laos’ (Volk/people) of God. He then made the point that in extremis – which is where he thinks the RC Church is at in many parts of the world – when there is no priest in an area, it is absurd to never have communion. he provocatively put this to Kung as: “Eucharist or celibacy?”
You have to remember that both Moltmann and Kung are steeped in the German(ic) tradition and context, expressing their challenges also from within that context. They both referred more than once to other German theologians and German ecclesiastical history. Neither would go for lay presidency as the expression of anyone’s desire to do it, but both look for ordered presidency – Moltmann drawing a distinction between ‘church’ and ‘house group’. There is also a big debate going on in Germany about the difference (if any) between ‘ordination’ and ‘commissioning’, but it is too convoluted to go into here!
Interestingly, Moltmann sounded a little like he had discovered what everybody else discovered decades ago and was slightly behind the game. The term ‘house groups’ covers a multitude of groups and forms and needs further unpacking if we are to be clear about Moltmann’s intentions.
May 17, 2010 at 10:51 am
Wow… I see why this is so significant and distinctive now… apologies for trite comparison comment on your earlier post.
May 17, 2010 at 4:19 pm
I too was privileged to be there – got my seat by 6.15; the theme of the Kirchentag was ‘That you may have Hope’ – and indeed that is exactly what these two giants gave us – in abundance. What they also both gave us was encouragement to ‘boldness’ and authority as lay people. Thank you for your excellent summary – I decided I could not listen and take notes – wish I had it verbatim. They, and perhaps you too, should definitely be members of the International Ecumenical Fellowship.
May 17, 2010 at 9:46 pm
[…] that isn’t the point of this post. While in Germany at the 2nd Ecumenical Kirchentag (until yesterday) it became obvious that the vast range of Christians present in Munich really did […]
May 21, 2010 at 8:28 am
Thank you Bishop for this.
My experience has increasingly been that many people, in all settings and from all denominational backgrounds, think that the Church(es) should get real. I have heard Moltmann and Kung’s questions (as blogged above) addressed before. Sadly even ‘elder statesmen’ like Moltmann and Kung have been saying it for a long time. Yet we still speak only of ‘hoping’ for this, for visible unity. I look forward to the action of visible unity–which as both men said (in not so many words)–is not prevented from happening by anything!
Thanks for Monday evening @ St Mildreds.
May 24, 2010 at 3:26 pm
Hello, we are a French magazine and we have inteviewed Hans Küng 2 times for our readers. If you read french, here is the link of the 2 two interviews : http://lexnews.free.fr/spiritualites.htm#kung08
We have also interviewed Jurgen Moltmann one month ago, the interview will be published in our webmag in a few weeks. We agree with you, what great theologians !
Best regards
Revue Lexnews
May 24, 2010 at 10:35 pm
Revue Lexnews, many thanks for pointing me to this. I do read French and was interested in the interviews. I look forward to the Moltmann interview!
June 8, 2010 at 9:12 pm
Thanks for this.I wish we could have these two repeat this in the UK !!
To Revue Lexnews – is there any chance of a English translation of the articles for Kung and Moltmann- I would love to read them.
Blessings
June 14, 2010 at 5:50 am
Thanks for your interest in our interviews. We will give an english version of J. Moltmann interview but H Küng’s one has been made in french and we have no translations of it. Kind regards
April 9, 2021 at 9:27 am
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